icing in down bags

FOLLOW UP TO ICE IN DOWN SLEEPING BAGS

Jerry, there’s good informational blog on down and some synthetic bags getting soaked and freezing dated 2005 that mentions your name as an answer to the problem. These winter backpackers are discussing the problems of ice formation in their down bags.Somebody mentioned a 700 fill down will absorb more moisture than a 400.They mention some 1986 Steger arctic expeditions where some synthetic sleeping bags became completely laden down with 60 lbs. of ice! There’s a lot of discussion about having to use vapor barriers to keep the ice out of their bags. They mention the Scott expedition to the South Pole where they spent hours every night attempting to dry out their bags.My guess is you’ve probably seen it. You can google it and it pops up under backpackinglight.com.I think I remember you telling me a long time ago that Quallofil was known for icing up.

Peter

Peter is a longtime customer as well as a person who has been around the outdoor industry for probably 40 years. He writes to me when a subject surfaces that he has knowledge and lets me know things.

I do not know of me being mentioned as the answer to the problem of “getting soaked and freezing” in a sleeping bag. I wrote to him to send me the article. I have known that my bags answered the question long before 2005 but it is always pleasant to know someone wrote about my product so favorably; for that I am thankful.

As for 700 fill down absorbing more moisture than 400 fill down seems logical. The more down clusters in the bag the more down there is to absorb the moisture. Just to remind one and all every mountaineer has frost in their down bag and clothing. Sometimes I think these folks are gluttons for punishments.

As for the Steger expedition, I have the original published report from DuPont describing the accumulation. The sleeping bags were the brain child of sierra designs. They were quilted with 15 pounds of Quallofil hollow core polyester fiberfill. The fibers were packed in so tightly that a wall of sorts was created. When the moisture from the occupant of the bag moved to the fiber it condensed quickly and froze.

Imagine a steel structure; 4 walls and a roof about 6 inches thick in a cold environment. Say the temperature outside is zero degrees F it would not take very long for the outside temperature of the inside of the wall to become as cold as the outside of the wall. The movement of the cold through the wall is known as conduction. The temperature is being conducted through the steel easily because the steel material is very dense. If you made the same structure from wood the conduction would take much longer because the wood is less dense and there are very small air spaces in the wood.

The same principle applies with polyester fiberfill. Since the fibers were compressed against each other the cold outside air was moving through the fibers as it does through the steel. If you put a bucket of water in the steel building it would not take long for it to freeze. When the Steger team as well as the Scott team were the source of the moisture and so it condensed quickly and froze. The Scott team probably had down bags, but as we now know they also had the problem with frost in their bags.

People who use vapor barriers find out quickly they are clammy in the bags and freeze when they get out of the bag due to the significant amount of moisture on their body.

As I have explained in the past; due to the bulk of the Lamilite and not compressing it means the moisture can move through the fibers and because the fibers are coated with silicone the vapor moves even faster. In addition since there are spaces between the fibbers as exists in wood the outside temperature does not conduct from the outside into the bag.

The problem or one of the many problems that I observe taking place in the outdoor industry are people who are trying to control things. They are trying to control moisture that naturally occurs regardless of activity from humans. I have yet to understand why they just don’t leave it alone and make products that do not stop human produced moisture from escaping naturally which it wants to do.

When you wear fishnet underwear ALL of the moisture coming out of your body moves quickly away from you. When you wear close knit underwear REGARDLESS if it is made from natural fibers or synthetic fibers it stays against your skin so you get a chill. They can soak those garments in silicone and the moisture will still not leave you alone. The many companies that offer these close knit garments that wick away moisture are without knowledge of what wicking is or if they do they are lying. Personally I do not think they know what wicking action is. They believe that the addition of the silicone will allow the moisture to escape; believing something without thinking demonstrates stupidity as far as I am concerned.

Ignorant people when given information can and do learn from it; stupid people when given information do not learn. Case in point waterproof breathable material! Regardless of how many times people discover that their moisture does not leave the garment they are wearing and point this out to all of the companies that offer such material and garments the material suppliers and garment sellers continue to offer the stuff. Einstein would say doing the same thing over and over and getting the same result when you want a different result demonstrates insanity; I just say stupidity, because they are not learning. All apparently are products of government schools.

BUYING WIGGY’S

Yesterday I mentioned that I have turned down every offer presented to me to sell Wiggy’s because the buyer would destroy the company within one year. Wiggy’s is my retirement activity and I would not have any reason to write about things that take place in the industry that are educational for my customers as well as future customers. It is my effort to cause the people in the industry to possibly look in the mirror and question if they are really trying to offer products that do perform. If I believed that I would only be fooling myself.